The Ultimate Sierra Cosworth? - Page 4 - Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes (2024)

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havoc said:

It's ONLY the competition heritage which is keeping the car at all relevant. And therefore it's only investors who are keeping values anywhere near as high as they are.

Not at all, competition heritage *and* it's enjoyable to drive, has the iconic looks (whale tail), has a hugely capable motorsport engine, and so on. You prefer other cars, that's just fine. It's entirely subjective whether any of your brain dump of cars are 'better' - I would rather have a shot of an RS500 than most of them

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Thought that would generate some debate!

aeropilot said:

Another perfect example of not "getting it" .
...
However, having looked at your profile, I now understand why you look at it very differently, and not from an emotive point of view

Ouch!

I do get the emotive bit, but I'm also very conscious that old cars often come with free rose-tints. Also, I guess I've never been a Fast Ford sort of person.

reddiesel said:

What's the point of listing all these cars above ? Most weren't even in Production at the time of the RS500 . Bentley Continental ??

But they are all for sale now for comparable prices to a Sierra Cosworth / RS500. So unless you're a Ford-obsessive, they are all very valid comparators.

My point is - if offered one, would you take a Cossie over ANY of the list above? What about a quarter of them? Half of the list? If you're saying "Yes", then you're either lying or past redemption!

Olivera said:

Not at all, competition heritage *and* it's enjoyable to drive, has the iconic looks (whale tail), has a hugely capable motorsport engine, and so on. You prefer other cars, that's just fine. It's entirely subjective whether any of your brain dump of cars are 'better' - I would rather have a shot of an RS500 than most of them

Now you're gilding the lily. The YB was developed from the Pinto, FFS, and the "motorsport" bit largely consisted of fitting the largest turbo available (quicker/cheaper than developing the engine properly), they've all got a head-gasket habit and even the (rare) hom*ologated/more robust YBD's aren't that reliable above 500bhp. Christ, there are a bunch of people in the US and Japan getting 600bhp from the Honda K20 with stock internals (i.e. fitting turbo, injectors, breathing, ecu), and the Mitsi 4G63 is probably even more robust. Meanwhile the Supra's 2JZ easily hits 1000bhp with just 50% more capacity/cylinders than the YB.

...but as aeropilot said above, these now appeal to those who saw them when they were young and for whom they've always been a poster-car. That I get - been there, done that myself. But please don't try to persuade anyone that they're worth the ridiculous money being asked...that is purely down to their competition history.

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havoc said:

I can honestly say I'd have a Cossie over:

havoc said:

* for which you could buy any of the following which would be better to drive, often multiples of:-
- Alfa Romeo Guilia QF
- Alpine A110 (old and new, depending on preference)
- Audi RS3 (either)
- BMWs E60 M5, Z3M
- Ford Focus RS Mk1 (good one)
- Civic Type R (EK9, FD2, FK8 for preference),
- Hyundai i30N
- a few Jaguars if you're brave or retired
- various Maserati GTs
- Mazda RX7 (FD3 for preference), RX8 (+ a few spares for when they break )
- Morgan Aero 8 and derivatives
- Peugeot 306 GTi-6 at least, probably a 106 Rallye too depending on your preferences
- nearly anything RenaultSport (OK, manual ones)
- Toyota Celica GT4 and GR86, possibly others I've forgotten
- Vauxhall Monaro / successors

And I'm not a Ford obsessive

Edited by Muzzer79 on Thursday 13th June 14:14

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havoc said:

From you're list, yes, I'd take a RS500 over everything on your list, because everything on your list is newer and therefore of no real interest.

But, I'd rather have 70k's worth of mint Escort RS1600, or a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina than a 150k+ RS500, but that's because I'm an old git.

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havoc said:

Now you're gilding the lily. The YB was developed from the Pinto, FFS, and the "motorsport" bit largely consisted of fitting the largest turbo available (quicker/cheaper than developing the engine properly), they've all got a head-gasket habit and even the (rare) hom*ologated/more robust YBD's aren't that reliable above 500bhp. Christ, there are a bunch of people in the US and Japan getting 600bhp from the Honda K20 with stock internals (i.e. fitting turbo, injectors, breathing, ecu), and the Mitsi 4G63 is probably even more robust. Meanwhile the Supra's 2JZ easily hits 1000bhp with just 50% more capacity/cylinders than the YB..

The main changes were of course the turbo, but also the new 16v Cosworth designed cylinder head. Head gaskets have been a non-issue for decades, there have been many improved versions since the 1980s, particularly the WRC multi-layer steel gaskets. Hence a YB is completely reliable above 500bhp when (like any engine) it is built and tuned correctly, and not using a knackered old original ECU and wiring loom from the 1980s.

US power figures are usually reality +25% on top, but suffice to say a YB powered car recently got into the 1/4 mile 6s in Malta, and a 200SX drag car in Aus featured on High Performance Academy ditched Jap engines and went for a YB with over 1000bhp.

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havoc said:

But please don't try to persuade anyone that they're worth the ridiculous money being asked

They are worth what someone is prepared to pay for them. The market dictates the worth or otherwise.

If no one buys at those prices the prices will change to reflect what the market rate is.

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Olivera said:

HA - I always found the best bit about driving one was those Recaros, lovely seat... so supportive whilst managing to be supremely comfortable at the same time.

To provide some contrast to your gushing commentary:
- enjoyable to drive, to be fair most things of the era were rear wheel drive and had a solid back axle with narrow tyres all round, so things were more fun to drive.
- has the iconic looks, yep always puts me in mind of grey council estates seeing stolen cars abandoned and stripped for parts or completely burnt out.
- hugely capable motorsport engine, yes racing RS500s were impressive but the standard road cars were merely 'ok for the time' - laggy, sounded boring, didn't want to rev over 5k rpm, vague/crap gearchange quality, felt and smelt like you were sitting in a new plastic dustbin, honestly after the Recaros these are the memories that last of a Sierra Cosworth RS500 from my driving them.

As you say, everything is subjective, lucky me for not being tempted to drop £100k+ on a Ford Sierra! Rather have an E28 M5 again any day.

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CKY said:

As you say, everything is subjective, lucky me for not being tempted to drop £100k+ on a Ford Sierra! Rather have an E28 M5 again any day.

Yes, if I was 'forced into' owning a 1980's era classic as a weekend toy, I'd have a E28 M5 over a RS500 as well.

I'd probably choose a mint early analogue dash Quattro over a RS500 as well.

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aeropilot said:

Ditto, me too. And, i think the "old git" inference is entirely relevant here as like you, we grew up with those types of car, well maybe not the Cortina, but certainly Mk 1/2 Escorts, and not forgetting the Lotus Sunbeam
I was around 28/9 when i got my first cossie, a 2wd Sapphire in moonstone. After Brodie Britain's breathed on it it went rather well and was smoother to drive. Did quite a few sprints in it with many class wins. It was still a good road car. Fareham to Snetterton in 2 hours one damp morning was memorable

In 92 i bought my Escort cossie, a motorsports version as i could not quite afford a luxury, car is still around, has some decent M sports history [it/we won the Midland Hillclimb championship in 97] wonder what that's worth ?

And the Sapphire, chap i sold it too still has it and i believe its still on around 12k miles!, again wonder what that's worth ?

350k for a RS500 is still bonkers money though

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havoc said:

please don't try to persuade anyone that they're worth the ridiculous money being asked...that is purely down to their competition history.

There's no persuasion required because it's a binary calculation.

A car is worth what several people are willing to pay for it.

Arguing that it's not worth that is subjective - you're bringing an opinion on it's quality as a car into it.

I wouldn't pay £20m for a Van Gogh painting, or a Banksy. But that doesn't mean it's not worth it. It's worth is defined by the fact that several people have paid that money for it.

The going rate for a good RS500 is six figures. That's defined by several cars selling for that money, therefore that's what they're worth.

You may not be willing to pay that. The sum total of their parts may not add up to that. Other cars may be subjectively better, for less money. But that doesn't affect what the RS500 is worth.

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havoc said:

the Cossie (which wasn't a brilliant driver's car when new)

Riiiiight. Okay.

Pretty much every period road test says the opposite. They were a very well sorted car, being based on what was a very capable base car. The brakes were probably a bit lacking in typical Ford style though.

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You either get the whole Sierra cosworth thing or you don't.

And im sure the £100k + buyers do, ading the top one to their collections.

Im at the bottom of the cosworth rung ( 4x4 sapphire ) And these days I often think about selling it on ( mainly due the PITA swerving the old ULEZ )

But then on the rare occasion it comes out, the comments, people on their camera phones and thumbs up, due to just seeing it out . Makes it stay. Oh and the 30psi of boost making 400hp helps alot too!

And I theres is no other classic toy I want really. And that I can think of, that would get this sort of attention.

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Yeh I get loads of thumbs up and pointing in my moonstone 3dr - even a pair of coppers in a riot van giving way to me at a roundabout.

It’s something I couldn’t afford in the 80’s as a teenager and made it happen now in my 50’s - you’re a long time dead.

there’s still non 500’s about for less than 50k

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eliot said:

Well said , I take my hat off to people with your attitude .